Northern Asia

Some things you might want to know in the way of backpacking, budget travel country advice, info and summaries for: Northern Asia - China, Japan, Korea & Mongolia

For Southern Asia (Bangladesh/India/Nepal/Pakistan/Sri Lanka) go here.

» It is worth looking, if you have not already, at the example layout to see the guidelines each section of information is based on - or for other travel advice and site home head for http://travelindependent.info

A big thanks to both Juan Diego Tinoco and Billy Hanley for their help with this page.

• Highlights: Area along the Li River (head for Yangshuo), Hong Kong's skyline, Tibet, Lijiang, (North-west Yunnan), Urumqi (Heavenly Lake) and Beijing. Less seen are Xishuangbanna (Yunnan province) and Sichuan province. Actually Xishuangbanna is overrated, but the Cangshan mountains around Dali are not. Plus of course the Great Wall - see below. Kashgar and the KKH to Southern Asia.

• Lowlights: Hong Kong's prices, the city of Xi'an tourist circus (home of the terracotta army), unfriendly staring, spitting locals and getting around in a huge country. The Great Wall can be disappointing if you go to a major tourist spot. Take the tour to a less known section (like the one offered by the Jinghua hotel in Beijing). Then later make your own way to the wall at Badaling where it is heavily restored and hugely touristy and compare the two for yourself.

'Yangshuo in China is one of the nicest, cheapest and friendliest places I have encountered in my travels. Its touristy as hell; but 1, you need a break from raw china, and 2, at the moment most backpackers that make it to China are much more tolerable then the ones you would find in the more mainstream Europe-to-Australia strip.' - Cheers, Trav.

• Visa strategy: Not really difficult to get, just a hassle if not near an embassy and will need a few days to issue. Flying into Hong Kong visa free and pick one up in two days max is one good solution. Getting a visa in Vietnam, Islamabad or Thailand may be easier than in your home country, especially if you're American. A Tibetan visa is a Chinese visa. You cannot enter Tibet from Nepal as an independent traveller - you must be on a tour. You cannot extend your visa in Lhasa.

Excellent train system, buses in remote areas are poor despite okay roads. Huge distances mean internal flights should be considered if you wish to avoid long train/bus journeys that are quite pleasant only if you are paying for a good class of ticket. Many Chinese cities are now extremely well connected internationally. Great news is that China has dumped the two-tier pricing system which saw foreigners paying many times more for both train and air fares.

Trains: Trains are very useful in China, but take some getting used to. Here's some quick advice: Prices vary according to the bed, the class and the type of train. For the same route, the price range depends on the speed, the age and the air-conditioning of the train.

In general, 'Express' or 'Tourist Trains' are more expensive than Fast Trains. Tourist trains are not faster but more comfortable. 'Hard seats' are recommended for short distances, in modern trains, if you have no other choice. Soft sleeper is the most comfortable class for travelling by rail but you will be locked in one compartment with 3 other people (four beds). 'Hard sleeper' (six beds) is cheaper, more colourful and less claustrophobic. The Chinese prefer the bottom bed as it comes equipped with a table and is the most expensive. The drawback is that everybody tends to sit on the bed during the day. The top bed is the cheapest and the most private but there is no window and no head-room - you lie just below the fan or air con and, if really unlucky, one of the three loudspeakers. The middle bed is therefore a good compromise.

Sleeper tickets are often tough to get - in some places, locals can now reserve up to one week in advance by simply calling the station. This means fewer tickets are available when you arrive to book. However many stations have special windows reserved for foreigners and a few tickets are usually reserved for last minute travel, but can be hard to get. Another option is to buy a hard seat ticket and try to upgrade it once on the train. Here also, you won't be the only one interested in travelling in relative comfort so you will need to get the attention of an official in one way or another. They might offer for you to wait in the restaurant car until a bed is available. Usually, foreigners receive better treatment than locals. It costs an additional Y10 or so to upgrade or modify a ticket. Boiling water is provided in every carriage. Rice meals are also offered for around Y5, together with snacks or drinks. More choice is available at every station and most of the Chinese wait to buy there.

Buses: Where trains are impractical or you can't buy a ticket, sleeper buses are the next best option for long distances ( see image). However sleeper buses are best avoided during the day as the lying down or sitting on the edge of a bed is not an ideal position for enjoying the scenery! The bunks are in 2 rows with a narrow aisle running down the centre. There are upper and lower berths and each berth sleeps two people. Depending on the type of bus, beds are either flat or zig-zag (raised at the head and knees). Quite often, only the bottom ones are flat and they sometimes come with a slight price increase. Whatever your reservation, you can usually change your bed by arriving a bit in advance and smiling at the driver. The Chinese do not usually like to share their berth with foreigners. As long as the bus is not full, you should therefore enjoy two spaces for the price of one, which really helps. Various stops may occur, including meals, breakdowns, petrol and washing of the bus just before entering the destination city.

To Tibet:

There are public or pilgrim buses to the monasteries near Lhasa and even to Shigatse, but most long trips within Tibet are done via 4WD. On all 4WD trips, bargain hard & check notice boards. Roads are not good and breakdowns are common. Here are some details of popular routes:

Golmud to Lhasa... current price from the hard to find CITS (China International Travel Service) is Y1900 for a one-way bus ticket to Lhasa. The road to Lhasa is amazingly good for how remote it is. Ride usually takes between 18 and 22 hours. A new train line will be/is running soon. Updates to follow (any information welcome).

Lhasa to Everest Base Camp (EBC)... first check the message boards at the popular guesthouses in Lhasa such as the Kirey, Pentoc, Snowlands, Banak Shol and Yak Hotel for postings 'seats available' to EBC. It is not uncommon to find a shared seat in a 4WD to EBC for around Y1000 or less. If you are in a group, it is easy to arrange a trip to EBC on your own. The travel agencies in the Banak Shol, Kirey and Snowlands Guesthouses are the best in my opinion. The can all quickly arrange an 8 day journey to EBC going through Yamdrok Lake, Nangartse, Gyantse, Shigatse and Sakya along the way and then returning to Lhasa. Expect Y3500-5000 per vehicle to go from Lhasa to EBC and back including all permits, entry fees, gasoline, driver's hotel and food, etc.

Lhasa to Nepal border... easy, cost should be around Y400-Y500 per person or Y2000 for a 4WD. This is to go straight to the border taking 2 days. Price won't include a stop at EBC or anywhere else along the way. Many guesthouse can arrange this trip.

Lhasa to Kailash and back to Lhasa... a great trip to make, again first check the message boards at the popular guesthouses. You can sometimes find a lift to Kailash and back for between Y3400 and Y4000 per person. Sometimes even lower. The standard trip to Kailash and back takes around 13-18 days. This includes stopping at Lake Manasarovar along the way. The cost of getting out to Kailash legally isn't cheap. Several agencies will quote Y15,000+ per vehicle, for a 15 day trip. Make sure that the 4WD is good (tyres, seats, engine, brakes, etc).

Kashgar to Lhasa... no buses, foreigners are not permitted to travel this route - although of course many try to hitch (see traveller notice boards in John's Cafe etc in Kashgar), most get turned back at check points. Hitching is difficult and cold - take supplies, the road is extremely remote. Expect 5 to 15 days.

To Central Asia and South Asia (out of Kashgar):

For the Torugart and Irkeshtam Passes (overland route into Central Asia - see within the Kyrgyzstan summary). For the Karakoram Highway (overland route into South Asia see within the Pakistan summary)

To Siberia, Moscow and beyond:

For the Trans-Siberian/Mongolian railway see within the Russia summary), or look at the well known man in seat 61.

• Intro: Almost everyone who has eaten Sushi or owned something made by Sony thinks they know something about Japan and the Japanese. For this reason probably there are many myths about Japan, however few are true.

The most commonly held misconceptions that affect travel are firstly that travel is difficult and secondly that Japan is famous as being the most expensive country in the world. For the record travel is as easy as in any other developed country with free tourist literature, and English language signs/announcements certainly make it easier than in China, Russia and many destinations in Europe.

On the cost front, it is expensive to live in Japan, but it can be cheaper to travel in than many western European countries. It won't be a bargain, but can be affordable; however you will need some extra planning to save money. All this aside you get what you pay for. In Western Europe you get beautiful churches and galleries. In Japan you get beautiful temples and gardens with culture shock of the best possible kind as a supplement.

From beer or hot tea in cans from vending machines, love hotels, mega cities, bowing from the girl serving you in a fast food chain, harrowing history lessons, toilets with remote controls, passing mount fuji in a bullet train, skiing and tropical beaches, food to die for and high standards - Japan is not one to miss for the sake of a few hundred bucks saved.

Japan with a little cash, care and a rail pass is truly one of the highlights of Asia and world travel and very easy to include on many round-the-world tickets or as aside trip (by ferry) from China or S. Korea. Capitalism meets Zen master. Japan is intriguing, confusing and always fascinating - few destinations in the world will have such a lasting impression on you.

• Costs: If you stay in hostels and cheap minshukus, and you are careful with your meals, you can survive easily with 7500JPY a day (which is a figure than can and does adjust in affordability as the Yen exchange rate moves). Add a train pass to this and you get to about 100USD (or just over) and this really is the minimum amount of money you need to visit Japan.

Since costs are the one thing that puts people off and worries so many it is useful to break-down here typical minimum costs: Accommodation: a capsule hotel or hostel bed runs at around 2,500JYP per person to about 3,000JYP per person for a double. Food is actually pretty good value if you avoid meat and too much fish, with loads of short-order restaurants/noodle bars. A ramen with soya or a little fish/meat can happily be found for less that 500JYP, fast food places are also plentiful with normal western prices and there are loads of supermarkets with most hostels having kitchens. Let's consider 3 x 500JYP per day for food (1,500JYP) - tea/water is given free when you eat. Transport - you will also need some transport and a day metro pass for somewhere like Tokyo is around 1,000JYP. Moving around the whole country the Japan Rail pass 'per day cost' varies depending on how long you buy it for (7, 14 or 21days) - if you consider 7 days (most expensive 'per day cost') then per day you will pay around 4,000JYP (a bargain to actual costs).

Add another 3,000JYP for a beer, entry fee and any other expense and you have a total of: 100,00JYP (inc. rail pass) or 60,000JYP (excl. rail pass). If you take the very rough rate of 100JPY to 1USD then you can see Japan is not too bad cost wise than travel in Western Europe, North America or Australia. Buy a train pass for longer than 7 days and spend some days without one or using regional local trains and you can average daily costs further down still. Start staying in hotels, taking taxis, eating meat or Sushi in fancy restaurants and buying bullet train tickets without the rail pass and you might as well multiply a 100USD per day budget by 5-10 times.

• Money: Japan is quite safe so don't fear about carrying too much cash. Japan is essential a cash society and although you can use a credit card it is best to stick with cash.

Changing money (any hard currency cash or travellers cheques) is easy, but not really super convenient and is very difficult outside of banking hours. The best and easiest bet is to use any post office as in a bank you may end up spending some time trying, due to communication problems. Private exchange offices are not easy to find or common - again any post office is your best bet.

ATMs are common and yes they do have opening hours, which in most cases are similar to office hours and they tend to suddenly shut down at random times. Do note that although ATMs are plentiful, many do not work with overseas cards. Still with a little hunting in any major town you will find an international one and the place you will always find an international compatible ATM is at the main Post Office - always easily found on a map or by asking, even if you have no Japanese. Also as mentioned these are also perfect places for exchanging money, but do stick to regular hours and the ATM is inside so to use that ATM you have to visit within these normal business hours.

• Guide book: Many good guides, all the main players have similar information and are about the same standard. It is worth noting that because Japan has had almost no inflation in the past 10 years, even older guides have fairly spot on prices. Also worth a mention are free maps and other excellent English language tourist information that are widely available. All major train stations have a tourist information office.

• Intro: Korea might be best described by its rather obvious position on the map - that of something in-between China and Japan. South Korea - which this summary mainly deals with - is effectively an island cut off to the North at the world's most heavily fortified border, however is well connected by ferry to China and Japan. Despite this and apart from those who come to teach English in their thousands or use Soul as a stepping stone between Japan, China and Vladivostok (the last stop on the trans-Siberian railroad), Korea is clearly a third choice over its heavily populated and touristed neighbours.

  The analogy of something between China and Japan goes further still. In both cost, efficiency, feel and ease of travel. Although clearly due to its own version of the 'economic miracle' it is closer to Japan. Like Japan it has fast efficient trains (although far fewer than Japan), crazy food/nightlife, most signs translated in English and a feel of a population comprised of efficient 'worker bees' with occasional examples of overzealous and rather amazing stabs of individualism.

  Westerners and tourists are far from uncommon in Korea, but are far, far less common than in the mass tourist/backpacker hubs of Kyoto or Beijing. Probably due to the fact there are no attractions on those scales. On a smaller and less well known scale, there is plenty. Gyeongju for example having more than just a passing resemblance to Kyoto/Narra and Seoul's many huge palaces to Beijing's own empirical city.

Misty forgotten archipelagos and volcanic islands linger off the coast while pine-clad national parks dot the mainland. Before Japanese occupation in 1910, three dynasties ruled, dating back to 57 BC. Korea, which is as nationally proud as you would expect from this long linage and its position surrounded by three super-powers - not to mention being a country split in half -, was isolated from the west for thousands of years and retains a culture and customs that will continuingly surprise and entertain. 

We all know sake and sushi, but little of soju, gimchi, or perhaps the world's most fun to eat dish: Galbi. Food is amazingly spicy and distinctive, eating seems to always involve plenty of people and alcohol and is for many visiting one of the main highlights.

Between China and Japan few travellers find room for Korea and even fewer any real time outside of Seoul (inc. a trip to the DMZ). It is worth not being one of them as Korea will almost certainly astonish.

• Costs: Costs as with Japan, depend very much upon the fortunes of the national currency - which has long been pretty good value. Although standards are high, day-to-day travel costs will be far below Western European, a good deal below North American and slightly below Japan. At the low-mid range end: food, drink accommodation and public transport are great value for the standard. Being a small country means transport costs will be low. There is a huge supply of hostels (in certain towns) plus cheap motels/love hotels (everywhere) which keep accommodation costs down. And lastly convenience stores can always provide a cheap (pot noodle) meal. US$35-40 per day is enough, you could probably get away with less and certainly spend much more.

• Getting around: Getting around is easy. Although the train network does have restrictions, there is a great network of buses. It is also all great value for a developed country.

  • Trains: Trains are excellent, most being fast, sleek and cheap, but unlike Japan there are less lines than probably needed. Some cities are wonderfully connected (the Seoul/Busan KTX mainline, similar to the bullet trains), others (North East) require long trips on old tracks/trains where buses are faster.

    Buying tickets is easy and apart from the super fast lines they are cheap. Like Japan, a rail pass is available (KR Pass). At first glance compared to Japanese versions it is excellent value and if you will be using the main KTX mainline between Seoul/Busan regularly in a short space of time it is. However if you are heading to the North East, Islands or national parks, it is tough to make it really pay. Like the JR pass (see Japan) it is only available to foreigners when purchased outside the country. There is a discount if you travel with 1 or more companions and you can book easily on the KR website.

  • Buses: Long distance buses are far more numerous than trains and at rush hour it can seem like one is leaving every five minutes. There are two basic types: express and intercity. One being faster than the other, but both often running the same direction/route, confusingly sometimes from different stations. Standards are excellent with breaks at service stations and sometimes a movie. With so many departures apart from at notable holidays (see below - Seollal and Chuseok) it is normally always easy to find one without booking in advance or waiting too long. Prices are cheaper than fast trains (but take longer) and about the same as the slower trains (but, are often fasters depending on rail connections).

  • Air: There are numerous internal flights, but why anyone would need to take them apart from rush trips to some islands (most Koreans come to Jeju by plane) is a mystery.

  • Boats: With many thousands of islands off its coast there are many ferries and options. The main ferry centres are Incheon, Mokpo, Wando, Yeosu and Busan. Fares are cheap, but for popular islands (Jeju, Hongdo and others) prices do shoot up.

From/to China, Japan and Russia

Despite being a technical island, international connections are easy:
To/from Russia, Zarubino (near Vladivostok, the last stop on the Trans-Siberian), there are twice-weekly ferries to Sokcho. It's around 18hours by boat and for this reason many take one of the regular flights.
To/from China there are many ferry routes from East coast cities all heading to Icheon (most popular are to/from Dalian, Dandong, Qingdao and Tanggu/Tianjin for Beijing.
To/from Japan, (to/from Busan) for Fukuoka and Shimoneseki is easy and you find both fast(jetfoil) and slower crafts.

• People vibe:

  • Locals: Koreans are friendly enough, but very few have good English or the confidence to use what they know. It is also a fiercely traditional country outside of major cities.

  • Other travellers: You are unlikely the meet many 'typical' Asian backpackers, with the exception of those you meet transiting to/from Japan travelling from Europe via the trans-Siberian. Most westerners you see in Korea are there to work (that is teach English) or are older, more experienced travellers, on a short trip. Those working aside, it is unlikely you will come across any great concentration outside of major cities, with most staying in Seoul/Busan rushing to Japan/Russia/China.

• Accommodation: There is plenty of accommodation in South Korea, across a wide range, but outside Seoul and a few other cities the budget choices are somewhat strange. Within Seoul and a few other destinations there are many excellent hostels, but often heavily in demand and worth booking ahead. Around the rest of the country in places like Gyeongju you can find basic guesthouses friendly and perfect for travellers on a budget and not wanting a dorm bed.
  
  For the rest there are plenty of motels, defined as being a cheap basic hotel, these are normally found in mass around the bus or train station and are instantly recognisable for their strange, gordy style (some have to be seen to be believed, turrets and all). They are normally excellent value although are almost always aimed at Korean couples being 'love hotels' - see image. As such at the extreme these can be rented by the hour, have a darkened doorway and screen between you and the receptionist, have a big board showing pictures of which rooms are free and which are 'otherwise occupied' and are pretty seedy. At the other end of the spectrum apart from the somewhat strange architecture these are the same as a motel in Europe or North America and are good value. The seedier ones are easy to spot and the better ones can be found with a guidebook and some time spent walking around.
  
  In North Korea all hotels are of a pretty good (dull) western standard and are pre-booked as part of your tour - see box left.

North Korea - what's it like and how do I get there?

Few destinations hold as much traveller kudos as North Korea. Pyongyang, despite reputably being the least visited capital on earth and North Korea's stance as the ultimate 'hermit state' firmly intact, it is however far from difficult to visit and tour. The catch is quite simply it is expensive to do so and you won't be allowed to leave the official government tour. What's more, apart from the kudos, the Mass Games (if you can see them) and the bizarreness of the place, it is actually quite dull.

Almost all travellers start their trip from Beijing where you can travel by train or air (most groups fly in and train out). It is also likely to be with a travel agent based in Beijing that will do all the lengthy and tricky permitting and visa issuance work behind the scenes. A surprising number of agencies offer tours (Koyro being the most popular), but all visit the same core sights and group tours are the cheapest (anything up to 40 people, depending on the cost). Being in a big group is however not too bad as you won't feel quite as shepherded and watched, plus have plenty of company in the evening when you are effectively locked in your hotel. Freedom is close to zero, you'll most likely spend every night in Pyongyang and all your accommodation, guide, transport (tour bus - although there is a metro system you get to ride on as part of your tour - the deepest in the world no less -, all public transport is off-limits) and food will be pre-paid and provided for you.

You will get state-run TV in your hotel room and will see/hear all the state propaganda you might expect on the TV and in all forms of media you come across. The 'real' city and around is best gauged from the tour bus window or train window (if entering/leaving the country by train) - this is the North Korea you expect, not all of which can be beautified for foreign visitors and signs of distinct poverty are obvious.

There is a lot that can be written on North Korea, all is interesting simply since it is North Korea, but at the same time there is very little to say that is interesting if it was not the hermit state it is. In fact many of the myths that make it seem so fascinating are false.

 What most want to know is how much will it cost?

Costs vary depending on the agency and the size or group and tour itinerary/length, so it is hard to be exact. However for a ball-park figure think between EU€1000-2000 with the cheaper figure being for a four day tour and the latter being seven, say with slightly more upmarket lodgings at a peak time in a smaller group. For other tours such as individual tours you could double those figures. Although there is a state run company based in Beijing that might take you for half that price if you can manage to deal with their bureaucracy .

Visiting the DMZ from South Korea

For those that think the sort of money you need to spend to get to the North is better spent in the South it is still possible to get inside North Korea (although only a few meters!) from South Korea on a DMZ (De-Militarised Zone)/JSA tour. Although somewhat of a tourist circus and the most obvious attraction near to Seoul, the DMZ and learning about how it came into being is a worthwhile part of any trip.

There are essentially two ways you can see the DMZ. The first is travel to one of many observation points along the border and look over. There are also several tunnels would-be invading North Koreans mined that you can go down in. You find an observation point and tunnel just North of Seoul.

The second option which is not open to Koreans and some other nationalities is to actually go into the DMZ to where you see the actual border and could literary throw a stone into North Korea. This is called Panmunjeom or the Joint Security Area (JSA), which is inside the DMZ, and to visit here you will need to be on a tour with an official military escort as effectively you enter a war zone.

There a many companies offering JSA tours, all starting and finishing in Seoul. Many tours don't go to the JSA itself, so it is worth checking and those that do often include a trip to an observation point and tunnel. JSA tours are way cheaper than actually going to North Korea, but in a country of such reasonable transportation costs, could be considered a little pricey. You can check current prices and make reservations with these three popular operators: Panmunjeom Travel, Young Il Tours and USO (the recreational arm of the US army and probably the most popular outfit). Tours can get busy and don't go every day, so making a reservation makes sense if you have only a short time.

A JSA tour starts fairly early and drives via a coach to a US army base where you get a military style briefing, sign a disclaimer and then get taken to the actual border where you can look over at the North Korea personnel and buildings, fifty meters or so ahead. You can sometimes also enter the buildings that straddle the border where negotiations take place (i.e. one end of the room is in South Korea, the other end in North Korea). Then it is back on the bus, lunch (probably not included in the price), an observation post (which are popular with South Koreans and Chinese as they cannot enter the JSA itself). Next stop an underground tunnel (known as the third tunnel of Aggression) which as impressive as it is is often quite crowded and those with poor fitness will suffer. Then back. Some tours offer other add-on or extras like North Korean defectors as guides, but the flavour is generally the same and it is hard to visit South Korea without making such a trip.

• Costs: Its possible to live/travel for between US$15 and US$30 per day. Accommodation/food/transport are all quite cheap.

• Money: Best to bring US$ cash or traveller's cheques and change money in Ulan Bator. There are now ATMs in UB, but they only take Plus and Visa cards, not Cirrus as far as reported. You can find them in major hotels or banks and some supermarkets.

• What to take: Sunscreen, warm clothes / thermals, tent and good sleeping bag if you want to really get off the beaten track.

• What to buy: Fur clothes if you are so inclined, traditional Mongolian hats and coats, the special Edition of Mongolian 'Bob Marley' stamps available in the central post office.

• Health: General health problems to watch out for include food poisoning, severe hangovers and catching a cold.

• Getting around: Rail to Ulan Bator from Beijing (it's a lovely journey), which passes on north to Russia. There are one or two domestic rail lines out of Ulan Bator, such as to Bulgan. For most other journeys its bus with long distances involved. For example, to get from Ulan Bator to Moron (near Lake Hovsgol) takes 24 hours. Roads are mainly dirt tracks. For longer distances, a number of provincial towns are connected to Ulan Bator by air. Especially to the far west, this may be worthwhile. Around Gobi the conventional mode of transport is the jeep. Around Lake Hovsgol, horse trekking is a great way to spend a few days or even a week. Locals are really hospitable.

• Guide book: Lonely Planet have a reasonable guide book. Guide book not an absolute necessity since there is not a huge range or choice of towns to visit. You can learn most by talking to other backpackers in Ulan Bator.

Many thanks to....

Billy Hanley for supplying this summary and sharing his knowledge.

'Highlights for me: horse trekking around Lake Hovsgol is a wonderful experience, though you have to be ready to rough it a bit. The scenery is fantastic and you meet great people. Guides can be hired from near the lake. I don't remember the details, but it certainly wasn't expensive to hire a guide and horses – in the order of US$10 per day for the horses and maybe another US$10 for the guide. The people along the way are wonderful and very hospitable. Staying in a yurt is a great experience.'
 
'In Ulan Bator the things I enjoyed most were visiting the markets, especially the larger outdoor ones on the edge of town. Native Mongolian music is great, especially the 'tonal' singing. Also, it has some funky nightclubs and a great German restaurant. I wasn't in Gobi but heard lots of good things about it.'
 
'While it may seem contradictory, I enjoyed the epic 24 hour journeys on bumpy dirt tracks to get to wherever the next destination was. The scenery was outstanding and the roadside cafes where the buses stop are always colourful and interesting. It is a really massive country with very little construction. Most people live in tents. Travelling by bus, you get a good impression of this.' - Billy Hanley